Deposition in King v. Little League Baseball, Inc.
6/27/1973
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This document comes from the court case Carolyn King, by Gerald King, her Next Friend, Ypsilanti Community American Little League, and the City of Ypsilanti v. Little League Baseball, Inc.
It is a court deposition from an orthopedic surgeon stated that there was little difference developmentally between girls and boys between the ages of 10 to 12 in regards to Little League Baseball.
Carolyn King, a twelve-year-old girl, could play baseball better than neighborhood boys. After receiving permission from the Ypsilanti Michigan American League Little League president to try out, Carolyn beat 15 boys and a couple of girls for a spot on the Orioles team in 1973. The national Little League Baseball organization prohibited girls at that time, and issued a warning that unless Carolyn stopped playing, the Ypsilanti American League would lose its charter.
King and her supporters brought their desire for equal opportunity to Federal court invoking violation of the 14th Amendment. Judge Ralph Freeman dismissed the case for lack of jurisdiction, a decision upheld by the Appelate Court. Between 1972 and 1974, 22 cases, including King’s, were filed against Little League Baseball, Inc. and its boys-only policy. The national Little League organization eventually petitioned Congress to amend its Federal charter to eliminate the boys-only rule when it lost the New Jersey state case National Organization for Women vs. Little League Baseball, Inc. in spring 1974. On December 26, 1974, President Ford signed into law a bill that formally opened Little League Baseball to girls. By this time, King was 13 and too old, yet thousands of other girls would play.
This document is featured in "Baseball: The National Pastime in the National Archives," a free eBook from the National Archives.
It is a court deposition from an orthopedic surgeon stated that there was little difference developmentally between girls and boys between the ages of 10 to 12 in regards to Little League Baseball.
Carolyn King, a twelve-year-old girl, could play baseball better than neighborhood boys. After receiving permission from the Ypsilanti Michigan American League Little League president to try out, Carolyn beat 15 boys and a couple of girls for a spot on the Orioles team in 1973. The national Little League Baseball organization prohibited girls at that time, and issued a warning that unless Carolyn stopped playing, the Ypsilanti American League would lose its charter.
King and her supporters brought their desire for equal opportunity to Federal court invoking violation of the 14th Amendment. Judge Ralph Freeman dismissed the case for lack of jurisdiction, a decision upheld by the Appelate Court. Between 1972 and 1974, 22 cases, including King’s, were filed against Little League Baseball, Inc. and its boys-only policy. The national Little League organization eventually petitioned Congress to amend its Federal charter to eliminate the boys-only rule when it lost the New Jersey state case National Organization for Women vs. Little League Baseball, Inc. in spring 1974. On December 26, 1974, President Ford signed into law a bill that formally opened Little League Baseball to girls. By this time, King was 13 and too old, yet thousands of other girls would play.
This document is featured in "Baseball: The National Pastime in the National Archives," a free eBook from the National Archives.
Transcript
UNITED STATES OF AMERICAIN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN
SOUTHERN DIVISION
CAROLYN ANN KING, by GERALD W. KING, her next friends, YPSILANTI COMMUNITY AMERICA LITTLE LEAGUE an Unincorporated Michigan Association THE CITY OF YPSILANTI, a Michigan Public Body Corporation.
Plaintiffs.
Vs. Case No. 40304
LITTLE LEAGUE BASEBALL, INCORPORATED A Federal Corporation, S.B. STANTION, Agent for Little League Baseball.
Defendants.
The Deposition of DR. LOUIS P. KIVI, a witness herein, taken for the purpose of discovery in the above entiled cause at 3131 Professional Drive, in the City of Ann Arbor, Michigan, on Wednesday, June 27, 1973, commencing at or about the hour o 7:00 o’clock, P.M., before Richard L. Nizza, a Notary Public in abd for the Country of Macomb acting in Washtenaw.
APPEARANCES:
FREATMAN, BARR & ANHUM
(By: John M. Barr)
105 Pearl Strees
Ypsilanti, Michigan 48197
PLAINTIFF’S EXHIBIT 5
6-29-73
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Wednesday, June 27, 1973
About 7:00 P.M.
_ _ _
BARR: Let the record reflect this disposition is taken pursuant to the Federal Rules and pursuant to an oral stipulation with counsel for the Defendant, Mr. John Norris. Mr. Norris has indicated that her would not be there this evening and that we could go forward with the deposition, introduce it for use at the hearing on June 28th, in Federal Court for the Preliminary Injunction Hearing.
_ _ _
LOUIS P. KIVI, M.D.,
having been first duly sworn by the Notary Public was and examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. BARR:
Q Doctor, would you state your name, please?
A Louis P. Kivi.
Q What is your occupation?
A I am a physician.
Q What is your professional address?
A 3131 Professional Drive, Suite B, Ann Arbor.
Q What type of physician are you?
A Orthopedic surgeon.
-2-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
A Yes, sir.
Q And what is the general nature of the treatment that you preform, or the injuries of children you deal with?
A We have varied reasons for seeing children. Some of them are congenital deformities, but approximately half of children visit are for injury.
Q I see. And any particular type of injury, contusions, abrasions?
A Some times. Usually when we see them they already have a fracture, because they do have a fracture.
Q Restricting it to children in this general age group of say ten to twelve, or there-abouts, could you estimate how many children such as this you have treated in the past eighteen years you have been practicing?
A I think a conservative estimate would be a thousand.
Q And have you had occasion to treat any children that have received sports related injuries?
A This is very frequently a source of injury, yes.
Q And have you had any occasion to treat children that have been injured in Baseball, Hardball playing?
A Restricting it to that age group it is a relatively rare injury.
-6-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
Q Have you, not restricting it to an age group, have you had occasion to treat persons for injuries received playing hardball?
A Yes.
Q Could you characterize what the most frequent type of injury is, Doctor?
A The most frequent type is relatively a severe injury to the ankle or the tibia, which is the large bone in the lower leg; from catching a baseball spike while either running or sliding.
Q I see. Assuming that the players did not wear spikes would that, in your opinion, reduce the frequency of that type of injury?
A Yes, sir.
Q Doctor, in your opinion, restricting your answer to children between the age of ten and twelve, have you has occasion to treat both boys and girls?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Doctor, have you been able, in your practice and your treatment of these injuries to come to an opinion as to the relative strength of childrens limbs and bones as apposed to boys and girls, or on the basis of sex: do you have an opinion as to whether or not boys limbs are stronger then girls limbs?
A I think the major differences occur between individuals
-7-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
rather then between sex. That is to say one might see a girl who has much stronger musculature and bone structure then a boys who is less developed.
Q Would that be restricted to a particular age?
A This would be particularly true in the age group we are talking about. That would be between ten and twelve.
Q And if you take two different children with the relative done structure and same strength of bone structure, is there any way you can make one child stronger then the other child?
A The appropriate cause of increasing bone strength is activity. That is, a more active child will have automatically increased bone strength, and the less active child will have automatically decreased bone strength.
Q Would that be true for both boys and girls?
A Yes, sir
Q You are familiar with the game of baseball?
A Yes. I was an assistant coach for half of one summer.
Q Are you married I take It?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did you have children or that marriage?
A I have five sons.
Q What is there age range at this time?
-8-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
A Twentyfour to eight.
Q And did some of the sons play in little league ball?
A I just had one.
Q And did you become familiar with the game and the way it is played and the equipment, and what is necessary and so on?
A Yes, sir.
Q And when was that that you became familiar with it?
A That was about 1960.
Q Okay. And based on your acquaintanceship with the game and your treatment of the patients that you have mentioned and your training and so on Doctor, would you have an opinion as to whether or not it would be dangerous or more dangerous for girls to play little league baseball then it would be for boys to play little leagu baseball, assuming there ages to be between ten and twelve?
A I think that I would say it would make no difference what sex they are. It makes a difference in how strong they are, what kind of child they are.
Q Can you say, as a generality, that one sex would be stronger or weaker then another sex at this age?
A I think there would be very little difference.
Q Do you have an opinion as the children grow older
-9-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
whether or not there would be a difference?
A Then I think they begin to change as they reach the latter stages of puberty where the hormones begin to take effect and the boys get androgens which does cause and develop muscle strength in bone mass.
Girls have increased estrogen which gives them body contour. Then also at that point, at least socially there activity begins to change. Most girls become less active physically and boys become more active physically.
Q Does this activity level have some effect on there strength?
A Yes, it does.
Q An what is that?
A The more activity the more strength, both in bone and muscle.
Q In your opinion Doctor, from your experience, the boys playing little league ball, would you feel they have reched the puberty level at the age of twelve or so?
A some of them might beginning, but there not yet developing this true androgen effect.
Q If you had a girl, Doctor, would you have any hesitation to have her play little league ball?
A No.
-10-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
Q As far as the braking strength of the bones that boys and girls have at the age of ten or twelve, in your opinion is there any difference?
A No, sir. I don’t think there is any difference.
Q If someone is to give you X-rays of a person arm or a child arm of the age ten to twelve, one being a boy and one being a girl, could you by looking tell the difference between the sex?
A No way.
Q If you had an actual bone itself could you tell the difference?
A No, sir.
Q Is there any in looking at the bones of children this age, between boys and girls, to tell the difference in sex?
A No sir.
Q A far as muscle development, you indicated that you are an orthopedic surgeon?
A Yes, sir.
Q And would you tell me whether or not it is necessary to study muscles and so on to become a surgeon?
A Yes, sir.
Q And are you familiar with the muscle development on boys and girls of the age of ten to twelve?
A Yes, sir.
-11-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
Q In your opinion at the age range would there be any significant difference in the muscle development of most boys as to most girls?
A I think most boys will demonstrate more muscle mass to look at them. I do think that this is partly because they have been encouraged to be more active and to participate formally in sports like little league and girls have been rather discouraged from participating, and perhaps we might see some changes if we change the level of girls activities.
Q In your opinion would boys, as a whole, at this age be stronger then girls, as a rule?
A Again I think at this age one should concentrate on the individual without regard to its sex. The individual differences among girls and the individual differences among boys may be larger then the difference between sex’s.
Q Would it be true then that some girls would be stronger then some boys at this age?
A Yes, sir.
Q What would be the determining factor?
A Individuality.
Q Such as?
A Inherited characteristics.
-12-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
_ _ _
LOUIS P. KIVI, M.D.,
having been first duly sworn by the Notary Public was and examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. BARR:
Q Doctor, would you state your name, please?
A Louis P. Kivi.
Q What is your occupation?
A I am a physician.
Q What is your professional address?
A 3131 Professional Drive, Suite B, Ann Arbor.
Q What type of physician are you?
A Orthopedic surgeon.
-2-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
A Yes, sir.
Q And what is the general nature of the treatment that you preform, or the injuries of children you deal with?
A We have varied reasons for seeing children. Some of them are congenital deformities, but approximately half of children visit are for injury.
Q I see. And any particular type of injury, contusions, abrasions?
A Some times. Usually when we see them they already have a fracture, because they do have a fracture.
Q Restricting it to children in this general age group of say ten to twelve, or there-abouts, could you estimate how many children such as this you have treated in the past eighteen years you have been practicing?
A I think a conservative estimate would be a thousand.
Q And have you had occasion to treat any children that have received sports related injuries?
A This is very frequently a source of injury, yes.
Q And have you had any occasion to treat children that have been injured in Baseball, Hardball playing?
A Restricting it to that age group it is a relatively rare injury.
-6-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
Q Have you, not restricting it to an age group, have you had occasion to treat persons for injuries received playing hardball?
A Yes.
Q Could you characterize what the most frequent type of injury is, Doctor?
A The most frequent type is relatively a severe injury to the ankle or the tibia, which is the large bone in the lower leg; from catching a baseball spike while either running or sliding.
Q I see. Assuming that the players did not wear spikes would that, in your opinion, reduce the frequency of that type of injury?
A Yes, sir.
Q Doctor, in your opinion, restricting your answer to children between the age of ten and twelve, have you has occasion to treat both boys and girls?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Doctor, have you been able, in your practice and your treatment of these injuries to come to an opinion as to the relative strength of childrens limbs and bones as apposed to boys and girls, or on the basis of sex: do you have an opinion as to whether or not boys limbs are stronger then girls limbs?
A I think the major differences occur between individuals
-7-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
rather then between sex. That is to say one might see a girl who has much stronger musculature and bone structure then a boys who is less developed.
Q Would that be restricted to a particular age?
A This would be particularly true in the age group we are talking about. That would be between ten and twelve.
Q And if you take two different children with the relative done structure and same strength of bone structure, is there any way you can make one child stronger then the other child?
A The appropriate cause of increasing bone strength is activity. That is, a more active child will have automatically increased bone strength, and the less active child will have automatically decreased bone strength.
Q Would that be true for both boys and girls?
A Yes, sir
Q You are familiar with the game of baseball?
A Yes. I was an assistant coach for half of one summer.
Q Are you married I take It?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did you have children or that marriage?
A I have five sons.
Q What is there age range at this time?
-8-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
A Twentyfour to eight.
Q And did some of the sons play in little league ball?
A I just had one.
Q And did you become familiar with the game and the way it is played and the equipment, and what is necessary and so on?
A Yes, sir.
Q And when was that that you became familiar with it?
A That was about 1960.
Q Okay. And based on your acquaintanceship with the game and your treatment of the patients that you have mentioned and your training and so on Doctor, would you have an opinion as to whether or not it would be dangerous or more dangerous for girls to play little league baseball then it would be for boys to play little leagu baseball, assuming there ages to be between ten and twelve?
A I think that I would say it would make no difference what sex they are. It makes a difference in how strong they are, what kind of child they are.
Q Can you say, as a generality, that one sex would be stronger or weaker then another sex at this age?
A I think there would be very little difference.
Q Do you have an opinion as the children grow older
-9-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
whether or not there would be a difference?
A Then I think they begin to change as they reach the latter stages of puberty where the hormones begin to take effect and the boys get androgens which does cause and develop muscle strength in bone mass.
Girls have increased estrogen which gives them body contour. Then also at that point, at least socially there activity begins to change. Most girls become less active physically and boys become more active physically.
Q Does this activity level have some effect on there strength?
A Yes, it does.
Q An what is that?
A The more activity the more strength, both in bone and muscle.
Q In your opinion Doctor, from your experience, the boys playing little league ball, would you feel they have reched the puberty level at the age of twelve or so?
A some of them might beginning, but there not yet developing this true androgen effect.
Q If you had a girl, Doctor, would you have any hesitation to have her play little league ball?
A No.
-10-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
Q As far as the braking strength of the bones that boys and girls have at the age of ten or twelve, in your opinion is there any difference?
A No, sir. I don’t think there is any difference.
Q If someone is to give you X-rays of a person arm or a child arm of the age ten to twelve, one being a boy and one being a girl, could you by looking tell the difference between the sex?
A No way.
Q If you had an actual bone itself could you tell the difference?
A No, sir.
Q Is there any in looking at the bones of children this age, between boys and girls, to tell the difference in sex?
A No sir.
Q A far as muscle development, you indicated that you are an orthopedic surgeon?
A Yes, sir.
Q And would you tell me whether or not it is necessary to study muscles and so on to become a surgeon?
A Yes, sir.
Q And are you familiar with the muscle development on boys and girls of the age of ten to twelve?
A Yes, sir.
-11-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
Q In your opinion at the age range would there be any significant difference in the muscle development of most boys as to most girls?
A I think most boys will demonstrate more muscle mass to look at them. I do think that this is partly because they have been encouraged to be more active and to participate formally in sports like little league and girls have been rather discouraged from participating, and perhaps we might see some changes if we change the level of girls activities.
Q In your opinion would boys, as a whole, at this age be stronger then girls, as a rule?
A Again I think at this age one should concentrate on the individual without regard to its sex. The individual differences among girls and the individual differences among boys may be larger then the difference between sex’s.
Q Would it be true then that some girls would be stronger then some boys at this age?
A Yes, sir.
Q What would be the determining factor?
A Individuality.
Q Such as?
A Inherited characteristics.
-12-
HURON REPORTING SERVICE
761-5328
This primary source comes from the Records of District Courts of the United States.
National Archives Identifier: 7329708
Full Citation: Deposition; 6/27/1973; Civil Case 40304; Carolyn King, by Gerald King, her Next Friend, Ypsilanti Community American Little League, and the City of Ypsilanti v. Little League Baseball, Inc.; Civil Case Files, 1938 - 1998; Records of District Courts of the United States, Record Group 21; National Archives at Chicago, Chicago, IL. [Online Version, https://www.docsteach.org/documents/document/deposition-little-league, March 29, 2024]Rights: Public Domain, Free of Known Copyright Restrictions. Learn more on our privacy and legal page.